WaterFox 14 Posted June 21, 2020 (edited) Hi, All. Just wondering if anyone has any thoughts on online roulette probabilities of outcomes when the Casino allows you to bet on zero. To me this implies they no longer have a house edge but, if that's the case, then does the Casino in question have the outcome based on a percentage payout model rather than using an RNG? In other words, if you were to win several times consecutively, would you then start losing to ensure the payout percentage is met, in a similar way to slot machines? Edited June 21, 2020 by WaterFox Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Chair Slots 3,014 Posted June 21, 2020 I’ve never seen an online casino that doesn’t let you bet on zero. And the house edge is still 2.7%. They they are not compensated, they are based on an RNG model that reflects the true-to-life RTP. I have seen pub roulette machines that are compensated however, but the max bet is only £1 per spin anyway. I don’t mean to be rude but for such a studious person to be asking such basic questions seems a bit odd to me. 2 2 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
WaterFox 14 Posted June 21, 2020 @Chair Slots- Thanks, I appreciate the clarification. Whist my question might be odd, as you put it, my perception is that the edge could be produced in a variety of ways and it might that the laws and rules which apply to land based Casinos could be different than for online. I'm not aware of this, hence the question. But a 35-1 payout versus 37-1 odds of winning is what I know from the land based Casinos so if this is true for the online then at least they align. This helps. Thanks. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
crazyrightmeow 4,438 Posted June 21, 2020 Since you have a degree in mathematics, statistics and computing you should understand basic math behind roulette since you working on this for years like you said in previous posts. American roulette −1 × 37⁄38 + 35 × 1⁄38 = −0.0526 (5.26% house edge) European roulette −1 × 36⁄37 + 35 × 1⁄37 = −0.0270 (2.70% house edge) Triple-zero wheels −1 × 38⁄39 + 35 × 1⁄39 = −0.0769 (7.69% house edge) 1 1 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Gkell727 6,325 Posted June 21, 2020 (edited) @WaterFox would you be able to sell me a system catered to me for a way to try and beat the casino? Edited June 21, 2020 by Gkell727 1 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Gkell727 6,325 Posted June 21, 2020 3 minutes ago, crazyrightmeow said: Since you have a degree in mathematics, statistics and computing you should understand basic math behind roulette since you working on this for years like you said in previous posts. American roulette −1 × 37⁄38 + 35 × 1⁄38 = −0.0526 (5.26% house edge) European roulette −1 × 36⁄37 + 35 × 1⁄37 = −0.0270 (2.70% house edge) Triple-zero wheels −1 × 38⁄39 + 35 × 1⁄39 = −0.0769 (7.69% house edge) Thanks have a nice afternoon 3 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
philinvicta 10,732 Posted June 21, 2020 7 minutes ago, WaterFox said: @Chair Slots- Thanks, I appreciate the clarification. Whist my question might be odd, as you put it, my perception is that the edge could be produced in a variety of ways and it might that the laws and rules which apply to land based Casinos could be different than for online. I'm not aware of this, hence the question. But a 35-1 payout versus 37-1 odds of winning is what I know from the land based Casinos so if this is true for the online then at least they align. This helps. Thanks. Where are you based ? @crazyrightmeow explains it very well above. I have never been in a casino that does not have European Roulette the fact that you quote a 37-1 chance of winning suggests you are US based. Vegas casinos decided that one zero was not enough and so added a second to improve their odds as far as I know Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Chair Slots 3,014 Posted June 21, 2020 13 minutes ago, WaterFox said: @Chair Slots- Thanks, I appreciate the clarification. Whist my question might be odd, as you put it, my perception is that the edge could be produced in a variety of ways and it might that the laws and rules which apply to land based Casinos could be different than for online. I'm not aware of this, hence the question. But a 35-1 payout versus 37-1 odds of winning is what I know from the land based Casinos so if this is true for the online then at least they align. This helps. Thanks. You’re not seriously telling me though that in AAAALL your studying of roulette automation you didn’t know how online rou worked and had to ask a forum for clarification?? 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
WaterFox 14 Posted June 21, 2020 (edited) 9 minutes ago, philinvicta said: Where are you based ? @crazyrightmeow explains it very well above. I have never been in a casino that does not have European Roulette the fact that you quote a 37-1 chance of winning suggests you are US based. Vegas casinos decided that one zero was not enough and so added a second to improve their odds as far as I know @philinvicta- I am in the UK. The Casino I play on has one zero, providing a 1 in 37 chance of winning. 1 to 36 is 36 numbers, plus the 0 gives 37 in total, so a 1 in 37 chance of winning as there are 37 possible placements. It allows me to bet on zero I thought that was odd as in others, from a long time ago admittedly, I have seen that prevented. It was the case that when zero came up the house took everything. Edited June 21, 2020 by WaterFox 2 1 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Chair Slots 3,014 Posted June 21, 2020 We’ll have Brian Cox in here in a minute asking which planet is closest to the sun. 4 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Gkell727 6,325 Posted June 21, 2020 @WaterFox can you develop something for me? Obviously I will pay you for your services... 1 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Solario333 11,316 Posted June 21, 2020 @WaterFox if by any chance you are going to apply your scientific analytical mind to a device that can be utilised on Immersive Roulette or any other online roulette , let me educate you . Online roulette may mathematically promise a specific RTP ,but in practise that is complete and utter hogwash ..... as 10,000 players will confirm it's a huge scandal ,where the ball just drops by the use of magnets and other processes on the number which denies you the odds you believe are true . So Evolution Gaming is a bad place to try your ideas . And of course many land based casinos now use computerised theft as part of their roulette provision...... so taking all punters to the cleaners . your mathematics is useless against unscrupulous providers . They simply create an algorithm that makes it look good and watch the money roll in ...... 1 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
WaterFox 14 Posted June 21, 2020 (edited) @Solario333- That's precisely what I am worried about and is the heart of my question. Thanks. I have only applied my program to Sky Vegas, because the stakes are small enough, and it would only currently work on other Casinos where I can control the execution of the spin. The pace is too fast otherwise, even for me let alone my program. But I'm vary of the potential for Casinos to have measures in place, exactly as you describe, to take money by breaking the randomness expectation. Thanks for the warning about Evolution Gaming and Immersive Roulette. Edited June 21, 2020 by WaterFox Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
philinvicta 10,732 Posted June 21, 2020 49 minutes ago, WaterFox said: @philinvicta- I am in the UK. The Casino I play on has one zero, providing a 1 in 37 chance of winning. 1 to 36 is 36 numbers, plus the 0 gives 37 in total, so a 1 in 37 chance of winning as there are 37 possible placements. It allows me to bet on zero I thought that was odd as in others, from a long time ago admittedly, I have seen that prevented. It was the case that when zero came up the house took everything. One in 37 is not the same as 37/1 though. @Solario333 no reputable casino would use a rigged roulette wheel and if any did and got caught then they would lose their licence in an instant. People forget that Ladbrokes had a casino licence which they lost due to unethical practices( things they provided to high rollers) and they still cannot get one back to this day 2 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
philinvicta 10,732 Posted June 21, 2020 4 minutes ago, WaterFox said: @Solario333- That's precisely what I am worried about and is the heart of my question. Thanks. I have only applied my program to Sky Vegas, because the stakes are small enough, and it would only currently work on other Casinos where I can control the execution of the spin. The pace is too fast otherwise, even for me let alone my program. But I'm vary of the potential for Casinos to have measures in place, exactly as you describe, to take money by breaking the randomness expectation. Thanks for the warning about Evolution Gaming and Immersive Roulette. If you did manage to spend many hours developing a programme with regards to roulette then you would just manage to prove to yourself that you cannot win. Casinos in the old days did not understand card counting for instance and it was the likes of Stu Unger who showed how vulnerable they were. They increased the packs in a shoe from 2 to 6 but people can still exploit it which is why you get banned if getting caught. Many mathematical geniuses would have looked for an edge over the years and I can assure you if there was one it would have been found by now. The only way there could be an edge is if there is some sort of flaw and casinos try and make sure there are none as they know that it would soon be spotted and used against them. 1 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Blacko 12,003 Posted June 21, 2020 Just sit at a roulette table and watch how many losing chips the dealer scoops down the chute after every spin, why on Earth would they need to rig a game that makes the house a fortune. You should be aware of that @Solario333 given the years you worked in the casino industry. This talk of magnets is bananas. 1 2 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
philinvicta 10,732 Posted June 21, 2020 11 minutes ago, Blacko said: Just sit at a roulette table and watch how many losing chips the dealer scoops down the chute after every spin, why on Earth would they need to rig a game that makes the house a fortune. You should be aware of that @Solario333 given the years you worked in the casino industry. This talk of magnets is bananas. Magnets would not work on a roulette ball due to the material it is made from. The way a ball bounces depends on the substance the ball is made of and also I would imagine the size. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest Posted June 21, 2020 15 minutes ago, Blacko said: Just sit at a roulette table and watch how many losing chips the dealer scoops down the chute after every spin, why on Earth would they need to rig a game that makes the house a fortune. You should be aware of that @Solario333 given the years you worked in the casino industry. This talk of magnets is bananas. The dude talks about; - The lord of the 5th realm of the far dimensions of space. - Not needing to eat and getting all required calories, vitamins etc from the sun. - Gargling arse oil to cure yourself of coronavirus. - The earth being flat. ....and you're calling him out for thinking online roulette is rigged? Harsh. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Blacko 12,003 Posted June 21, 2020 (edited) 13 minutes ago, philinvicta said: Magnets would not work on a roulette ball due to the material it is made from. The way a ball bounces depends on the substance the ball is made of and also I would imagine the size. There is several techniques/contraptions that can affect the outcome of roulette, they were commonly used back in the days of Al Capone where the mob wanted all of the spoils. To accuse evoulution gaming of these practices is ludicrous, the levels of money changing hands is eye watering, why would a provider put a million dollar money maker at risk by cheating?, all it would take was one pissed off croupier to open their mouth to bring down the whole shebang. Not aimed at you @philinvicta, just these daft conspiracy theories. Edited June 21, 2020 by Blacko Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
philinvicta 10,732 Posted June 21, 2020 16 minutes ago, Blacko said: There is several techniques/contraptions that can affect the outcome of roulette, they were commonly used back in the days of Al Capone where the mob wanted all of the spoils. To accuse evoulution gaming of these practices is ludicrous, the levels of money changing hands is eye watering, why would a provider put a million dollar money maker at risk by cheating?, all it would take was one pissed off croupier to open their mouth to bring down the whole shebang. Not aimed at you @philinvicta, just these daft conspiracy theories. Many of these things happened in the past and people were robbed left right and centre but punters have more protection than ever under todays regulations and if you get shafted you are betting on the wrong place such as unlicenced in th uk casinos 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
WaterFox 14 Posted June 21, 2020 Simply because of the doubt and the lack of clarity on whether the Casinos are corrupt is enough to make me defer to the possibility that they might be. I've seen enough posts of videos even on this site to strongly suggest it. It's either going to be the case that they are, and are willing to take the risk of licence lost and punishment, or they are not. If they are (corrupt) then they clearly think they need to be in order to make more money than the house edge offers or because there exists punters out there who can defeat the house edge. I agree viewing the roulette table and watching the Croupier scoop the chips into the chute should imply there's no need to gain more than the house edge but if it was theoretically possible to encounter an occasional punter who could, even by luck of timing, win more than the Casino was willing to accept then they would still wish for an advantage in that (rare) case. It's just wise to consider the possibility and to develop an approach that manages that, such as, for example, stopping when you experience a losing run that exceeds some reasonable multiple of the probability of it happening. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
WaterFox 14 Posted June 21, 2020 Actually, I also like the fact that you review and give your opinion on the trustworthiness of specific Casinos here. 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Gkell727 6,325 Posted June 21, 2020 @WaterFox are you ignoring me mate? Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Chair Slots 3,014 Posted June 21, 2020 Have you tried asking this question on Stop and Step’s forum @WaterFox ? You might get what you are looking for there. 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
