RB91 Posted August 30, 2019 Share Posted August 30, 2019 It’s 96% fair, David unless you’re playing PnG on Videoslots. Solario - play low variance games if you don’t find high variance games “fair”. You can play all the 500x max win slots and therefore you will find the gambling like it used to be. I like that chance for 1000x+ and I’ve hit it plenty of times. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Chair Slots Posted August 30, 2019 Share Posted August 30, 2019 On 29/08/2019 at 11:45, RB91 said: You’re entitled to believe what you wish, about there being some magical pot, and that the math is wrong. But it isn’t. The only thing that’s wrong is you, unfortunately. youre just unlucky. The math is correct over millions of spins. Exactly this. I seem to remember NetEnt saying that it takes 1 trillion spins to get a reliable/ consistent RTP to 2 decimal places. That's how long term the % is worked out over. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RB91 Posted August 30, 2019 Share Posted August 30, 2019 4 minutes ago, Chair Slots said: Exactly this. I seem to remember NetEnt saying that it takes 1 trillion spins to get a reliable/ consistent RTP to 2 decimal places. That's how long term the % is worked out over. Yeah, I don’t understand where the magical pot theory came from, it makes no sense whatsoever. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest centipede Posted August 30, 2019 Share Posted August 30, 2019 Yeah but what about the casino AI recognising the affiliate streamers ips and throwing in big wins for them? How does that affect the rest of us? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RB91 Posted August 30, 2019 Share Posted August 30, 2019 2 minutes ago, centipede said: Yeah but what about the casino AI recognising the affiliate streamers ips and throwing in big wins for them? How does that affect the rest of us? Ohhhh, that’s bait! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest centipede Posted August 30, 2019 Share Posted August 30, 2019 3 minutes ago, RB91 said: Ohhhh, that’s bait! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
phil_wlc Posted August 30, 2019 Share Posted August 30, 2019 (edited) @Solario333 Casinos cannot control the game result. They cannot change the RTP. They will take your money in other ways, this is emphatically not one of them. The game result, RNG spin etc is all controlled by the game provider. IVe said this before so ill lay it out again. Casinos work like this... Player spins ---> Request sent to casino back office ---> Casino removes bet size from player wallet ---> If player has enough funds spin request is sent to Game provider ---> Game provider verifies the casino and player ID for that casino ---> Game round result RNG is created ---> Game RNG result converted to a spin visual possibility ---> Result sent to casino for wallet adjustment/confirmation of no win ---> visual shown to player. This takes like 0.05 seconds. They will take your money by 3 ways though. delayed withdrawals with cancellation period/promotions and bonuses/people like to gamble. Thats the only way they can take it. EDIT - @Chair Slots most slots are tested over 20-30billion spins. Trillion is just too much and unnecessary Edited August 30, 2019 by phil_igp 1 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kev40 Posted August 30, 2019 Share Posted August 30, 2019 6 minutes ago, phil_igp said: @Solario333 Casinos cannot control the game result. They cannot change the RTP. They will take your money in other ways, this is emphatically not one of them. The game result, RNG spin etc is all controlled by the game provider. IVe said this before so ill lay it out again. Casinos work like this... Player spins ---> Request sent to casino back office ---> Casino removes bet size from player wallet ---> If player has enough funds spin request is sent to Game provider ---> Game provider verifies the casino and player ID for that casino ---> Game round result RNG is created ---> Game RNG result converted to a spin visual possibility ---> Result sent to casino for wallet adjustment/confirmation of no win ---> visual shown to player. This takes like 0.05 seconds. They will take your money by 3 ways though. delayed withdrawals with cancellation period/promotions and bonuses/people like to gamble. Thats the only way they can take it. EDIT - @Chair Slots most slots are tested over 20-30billion spins. Trillion is just too much and unnecessary How can play n go reduce rtp if your saying they can't change the rtp ? Surely reducing is the same as changing. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Chair Slots Posted August 30, 2019 Share Posted August 30, 2019 8 minutes ago, Kev40 said: How can play n go reduce rtp if your saying they can't change the rtp ? Surely reducing is the same as changing. The game operator will release several different maths models for a game. The casino simply chooses which maths model they want and stick with it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RB91 Posted August 30, 2019 Share Posted August 30, 2019 18 minutes ago, Chair Slots said: The game operator will release several different maths models for a game. The casino simply chooses which maths model they want and stick with it. Yeah, some providers make one version, BTG etc, but PnG and red tiger and some others make a few different versions. Luckily all the casinos I use have the higher RTP version, as opposed to the 92% or whatever. im just after the streamer RTP versions that @centipede gets Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
phil_wlc Posted September 1, 2019 Share Posted September 1, 2019 On 31/08/2019 at 00:45, Kev40 said: How can play n go reduce rtp if your saying they can't change the rtp ? Surely reducing is the same as changing. exactly, they swapped the version they get from PnG direct. Takes a few days to do though so youd notice. And they legally have to tell you i think, depending on what jurisdiction you play under. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RB91 Posted September 1, 2019 Share Posted September 1, 2019 4 hours ago, phil_igp said: exactly, they swapped the version they get from PnG direct. Takes a few days to do though so youd notice. And they legally have to tell you i think, depending on what jurisdiction you play under. Videoslots definitely let me know. I also haven’t made a single deposit there since they changed. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HenryThelegend Posted September 4, 2019 Share Posted September 4, 2019 (edited) I am a long time lurker who decided to register just to comment here. I think being an affiliated streamer is for sure a ethical grey area (at best). There is a conflict of interest as the streamer relies on people signing up and gambling (and losing money) to make money themselves. So they are advantaged to present a positive image of the casinos. The problem I have with affiliated streamers is that if a random player just tunes in to their stream then they will actually think that the streamer is "gambling". In reality the streaming is just part of their business model, and is just a marketing expense. They know they will lose £50k a year doing this marketing but they also know that £50k will net them many times that in affiliate income. But yet their videos and streams are not presented like that. They present them as "£2k vs casino slots" as if they are average punters. When in reality they are running a business, and the gambling videos are just an expense in their business. In such a sensitive industry having essentially adverts (the gambling videos are just ads to drive recruitment to the casinos via their links) that are not CLEARLY LABELLED AS ADVERTS is absolutely awful. I am shocked it is legal. I think affiliate streamers could easily face large fines or potential court cases from damages from other players. I think all affiliates should put banners on their stream to say that their video is just a marketing expense and essentially an advert. Of course this all comes down to regulation. So the main people to blame are the gambling commissions and their regulations that are not protecting players. I actually considered becoming an affiliate after making several videos that generated really good views quickly. But I just couldn't do it. Morally I couldn't do it. And I also think that affiliates could have potential legal backlash in the future. I think a disclaimer at the start of every video which states that the money in the video is funded by affiliate income and that the objective of the video is to drive people to their sign up links would be wise for all youtubers going forward. But I would not imagine this will happen. Fake money is worse than affiliates who present their content as actual gambling (rather than marketing), but by less than people think. Non-gamstop websites being promoted is obviously the worst of the worst, and probably the most likely practice to see legal action in the future. Edited September 4, 2019 by HenryThelegend Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
VillaLad Posted September 4, 2019 Share Posted September 4, 2019 13 minutes ago, HenryThelegend said: I think affiliate streamers could easily face large fines or potential court cases from damages from other players. This has got to be 1 of the stupidest things I’ve read. Your saying a person who watched a video of someone gambling can then take them to court because this person then gambled and lost Behave yourself. 14 minutes ago, HenryThelegend said: Non-gamstop websites being promoted is obviously the worst of the worst, and probably the most likely practice to see legal action in the future I think people forget that YouTube and Twitch are worldwide platforms not everyone is British Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HenryThelegend Posted September 4, 2019 Share Posted September 4, 2019 2 minutes ago, VillaLad said: This has got to be 1 of the stupidest things I’ve read. Your saying a person who watched a video of someone gambling can then take them to court because this person then gambled and lost Behave yourself. I think people forget that YouTube and Twitch are worldwide platforms not everyone is British Its just an advert. But it doesnt follow the advert rules Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
VillaLad Posted September 4, 2019 Share Posted September 4, 2019 2 minutes ago, HenryThelegend said: Its just an advert. But it doesnt follow the advert rules I get what your saying but it’s not an advert at the same time as the streamers will say they are playing with there own money so it will be very hard to prove otherwise and don’t get me wrong you made some decent points in your post but I ain’t having people sueing streamers cause they decided to gamble Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HenryThelegend Posted September 4, 2019 Share Posted September 4, 2019 4 minutes ago, VillaLad said: I get what your saying but it’s not an advert at the same time as the streamers will say they are playing with there own money so it will be very hard to prove otherwise and don’t get me wrong you made some decent points in your post but I ain’t having people sueing streamers cause they decided to gamble Fair enough mate. I mean, I am just speculating. Obviously, as with any legal case, its hard to know as law is super complex. And it kind of wasn't the main point I was making anyway. But either way, I think affiliates should declare prior to every video what their motivation is for the video (to advertise the site and get people to sign up via their links). I dislike the way they represent themselves as people just having a gamble 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RB91 Posted September 4, 2019 Share Posted September 4, 2019 They’re still gambling. The games aren’t playing any different. It doesn’t matter a fuck where the money comes from. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HenryThelegend Posted September 4, 2019 Share Posted September 4, 2019 13 minutes ago, RB91 said: They’re still gambling. The games aren’t playing any different. It doesn’t matter a fuck where the money comes from. It matters because their gambling is how they make money. Every time they play they have a positive win expectation because they know they will get affiliate sign ups which are extremely lucrative. Where is the gamble in that? It is totally different from someone who has a job and then does gambling vidoes with that money. They are running a business. Gambling videos are what drives their business. They present the content as someone just "having a gamble" when in reality it is someone running a business. This should be made clear to everyone as the way they currently do it creates the false impression that they are just "having a gamble". Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RB91 Posted September 4, 2019 Share Posted September 4, 2019 Are you saying that it isn’t clear that affiliates are making money? Literally none of the affiliates I watch leave you under the impression that they don’t make money from this. And the reality is, that they are still “just having a gamble.” When they lose, they’re losing their profit, their money, and as you point out, “if they win, they get sign ups.”, so by your logic, they lose even more money when they lose? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
david1111 Posted September 4, 2019 Share Posted September 4, 2019 24 minutes ago, HenryThelegend said: Its just an advert. But it doesnt follow the advert rules All I would say is that until legislation changes streamers are not acting illegally, some immoraly maybe, but to say there could be legal repercussions is wrong. Streamers are not forcing people to sign up via their link, they are just making the viewers aware of it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HenryThelegend Posted September 4, 2019 Share Posted September 4, 2019 (edited) 18 minutes ago, RB91 said: Are you saying that it isn’t clear that affiliates are making money? Literally none of the affiliates I watch leave you under the impression that they don’t make money from this. And the reality is, that they are still “just having a gamble.” When they lose, they’re losing their profit, their money, and as you point out, “if they win, they get sign ups.”, so by your logic, they lose even more money when they lose? But you are probably a fraction of the audience and actually understand exactly how it all works. They present it as gambling but its just running a business - or do you disagree with this? There is no gambling involved. The slots play is just a cost of doing business. But they present themselves as punters. "I am down £1k this week" whereas they aren't. Because that session got them 3 sign ups which give them a shitload more than £1k over the coming months. If they win or lose they win. That is my point. So there is no gamble involved. The are streaming because it is + EV Edited September 4, 2019 by HenryThelegend Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RB91 Posted September 4, 2019 Share Posted September 4, 2019 (edited) Well, if the majority don’t know that streamers make money from affiliation, that’s life, we need to stop catering for the lowest common denominator in life. I mean, obviously what you are saying is just your opinion and means absolutely nothing. Just as mine is. Edited September 4, 2019 by RB91 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kev40 Posted September 4, 2019 Share Posted September 4, 2019 2 hours ago, HenryThelegend said: I am a long time lurker who decided to register just to comment here. I think being an affiliated streamer is for sure a ethical grey area (at best). There is a conflict of interest as the streamer relies on people signing up and gambling (and losing money) to make money themselves. So they are advantaged to present a positive image of the casinos. The problem I have with affiliated streamers is that if a random player just tunes in to their stream then they will actually think that the streamer is "gambling". In reality the streaming is just part of their business model, and is just a marketing expense. They know they will lose £50k a year doing this marketing but they also know that £50k will net them many times that in affiliate income. But yet their videos and streams are not presented like that. They present them as "£2k vs casino slots" as if they are average punters. When in reality they are running a business, and the gambling videos are just an expense in their business. In such a sensitive industry having essentially adverts (the gambling videos are just ads to drive recruitment to the casinos via their links) that are not CLEARLY LABELLED AS ADVERTS is absolutely awful. I am shocked it is legal. I think affiliate streamers could easily face large fines or potential court cases from damages from other players. I think all affiliates should put banners on their stream to say that their video is just a marketing expense and essentially an advert. Of course this all comes down to regulation. So the main people to blame are the gambling commissions and their regulations that are not protecting players. I actually considered becoming an affiliate after making several videos that generated really good views quickly. But I just couldn't do it. Morally I couldn't do it. And I also think that affiliates could have potential legal backlash in the future. I think a disclaimer at the start of every video which states that the money in the video is funded by affiliate income and that the objective of the video is to drive people to their sign up links would be wise for all youtubers going forward. But I would not imagine this will happen. Fake money is worse than affiliates who present their content as actual gambling (rather than marketing), but by less than people think. Non-gamstop websites being promoted is obviously the worst of the worst, and probably the most likely practice to see legal action in the future. Some affiliation deals are solely a one off payment regardless of whether the player wins or loses so I'm lead to believe. Your correct in stating earnings do come from losses but some are just one off's. I know when the bandit asked people to sign up to kwiff through his link he stated he only got one payment from the initial sign up and no follow up payments. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HenryThelegend Posted September 4, 2019 Share Posted September 4, 2019 1 hour ago, Kev40 said: Some affiliation deals are solely a one off payment regardless of whether the player wins or loses so I'm lead to believe. Your correct in stating earnings do come from losses but some are just one off's. I know when the bandit asked people to sign up to kwiff through his link he stated he only got one payment from the initial sign up and no follow up payments. It kind of doesn't matter, as a player being active on a casino means they will give value to the casino and take value from the player. 1 in 100 might win but that doesn't really matter. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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